Interview Discussion - July 12, 2018 CS Career Questions |
- Interview Discussion - July 12, 2018
- Daily Chat Thread - July 12, 2018
- [First Junior Dev Job] - I feel like I knew Nothing?
- What are the best CS jobs boards?
- Aren't there many not-so-talented programmers in the US? Do they all earn at least $60K?
- Software Engineer moving back to Toronto from the US (X-Post from r/PersonalFinanceCanada)
- After working a year or two, do you feel you need to go through interview books again? Do you feel like you forgot all the basics?
- Would you take a pay cut to grow as a developer?
- Working more than 40 hours a week
- American Electrical/Software Engineer preparing to move to Germany. What can I do to get into tech there?
- Where are all the entry/junior positions?
- Doing a web and mobile app for $10k enough?
- Is it an issue with the north east or is it a large company thing, but do most developers lack any form of empathy?
- Second year CS student
- Is there anyone with Udacity nanodegree experience? Did it help you find a job in the field you wanted?
- When should I apply for data science internships?
- Recent Grad. What to do while applying for jobs?
- Student curious about the nature of tech industry
- Deciding whether to join a Startup
- Getting a foot in the door long after graduating
- Anyone offered equity in the app they are developing?
- Summer 2019 Recruiting Prep
- Best path from Architecture to CS? Certificate vs online BS vs Bootcamps for starting from scratch
- Consultans lurking here, care to answer a few questions about your job?
- New grad for 1 year, should I switch teams if I don’t like my manager but I love my work? How important is a manager?
- Dealing with "golden handcuffs" - anyone make a dramatic change in terms of technologies/languages/role?
- Looking for some career growth/specialization guidance.
Interview Discussion - July 12, 2018 Posted: 12 Jul 2018 12:07 AM PDT Please use this thread to have discussions about interviews, interviewing, and interview prep. Posts focusing solely on interviews created outside of this thread will probably be removed. Abide by the rules, don't be a jerk. This thread is posted each Monday and Thursday at midnight PST. Previous Interview Discussion threads can be found here. [link] [comments] |
Daily Chat Thread - July 12, 2018 Posted: 12 Jul 2018 12:07 AM PDT Please use this thread to chat, have casual discussions, and ask casual questions. Moderation will be light, but don't be a jerk. This thread is posted every day at midnight PST. Previous Daily Chat Threads can be found here. [link] [comments] |
[First Junior Dev Job] - I feel like I knew Nothing? Posted: 12 Jul 2018 12:01 PM PDT Hi, I'm a fresh graduade (bachelor's degree in CS) who got a Junior Developer position in a big company (it's my first job as a developer). I've already programmed quite a while at home (hobby projects ...) and felt like I knew quite a lot stuff compared to other students (who just learned what has been taught at university). But since I started one week ago I feel like I know absolutely nothing. I got access to their current codebase and of course I recognize some concepts and can "read" the code. But it's like I'm walking through a maze. One class uses annotations I never saw before, complicated builder patterns which are way more complicated than I'm used to and it really feels like I'd start from the beginning. When researching what part X of code does, I already forgot what part Y did. How long does it take for a Junior Dev to get used to this kind of stuff? How long should it take to be ready to actually produce code? I feel like I'm dumb, even though I was quite experienced in programming (with projects I wrote). But now I'm not even sure where to start and how I'd be able to understand the whole Code at all. I'd be glad to hear your experience for this kind of problem. [link] [comments] |
What are the best CS jobs boards? Posted: 12 Jul 2018 10:57 AM PDT Other than Indeed, and possibly just Google, are there any top or best-know places online for posting and searching CS jobs? Googling it doesn't really come back with anything that seems like the go-to place for jobs. What do you use? [link] [comments] |
Aren't there many not-so-talented programmers in the US? Do they all earn at least $60K? Posted: 12 Jul 2018 12:45 AM PDT Hello, a nobody from South Korea. I just searched Google for "us lowest developer salaries" and it gave me this: I mean, is it really for even the most crude programmers? There seem to be a lot of people who want to be web/mobile developers but with no particular talent here in Korea. So, they usually take a government-aided developer course (which seems to take from several months to almost a year), and get a really low-paying job. Today, on a Korean developer site, I read a post. He said he is living in Busan (second-largest city in Korea), and is graduating a 4-year college majoring C.S. He wrote that he was not so good at programming. He got a web developer job in Busan, but the annual salary is about $18K and the boss even said there may be overtime works and weekend works that will not be compensated. Korea is not a third-world country, so the cost of living is not that cheap. And although that $18K is low even for Korea, it seems a lot of untalented young developers are taking jobs that pays less than $20K annually. I cannot believe all US students are smart. Aren't there such young people who want to be a programmer but do not have great programming skills? And do they really earn at least $60K? Or, are that kind of people not counted as "developers", and "developers" in the US mean only people with high programming skills? PS: I thank a lot of people for sharing the information how much they earn. While it is helpful for me or others, I am a bit surprised that so many people have shared that information. In South Korea, it seems people really tend to avoid talking about how much they currently earn. Not in person, nor on the Internet. When I worked for a company I never knew how much any of my colleagues earned, because they never ever mentioned it. [link] [comments] |
Software Engineer moving back to Toronto from the US (X-Post from r/PersonalFinanceCanada) Posted: 12 Jul 2018 01:03 PM PDT After graduating from University in Canada, I moved to California and have been working here for a number of years. I had always intended to move back after making some money and gaining some experience and I'm getting to the point where I'm ready to turn my intentions into action. It seems to be well known that Software Engineer salaries are depressed in Canada as compared to the United States however there seem to be pockets of well-paying positions in Toronto (especially recently). Browsing job openings in Toronto has confirmed that the vast majority of Software Engineering jobs pay less than their American counterparts, but there are a few that are competitive[1]. My questions are as follows: (1) What are some companies with offices in Toronto that pay competitively as compared to their American counterparts? (2) Some of the highest paid Software Engineers in the US tend to work in the Financial Sector. Given that banking is such a huge sector in Toronto/Canada, are banks/fintech a good option for competitive compensation? (3) Have folks had luck with being a remote employee for a US based company (I'd prefer not to do this but I'd like some perspective). What about freelancing/contracting? (4) Is there more opportunity in Waterloo than Toronto? (Again, I'm not inclined towards this option but I'd like to get some perspective) Any thoughts or comments are greatly appreciated! [1] Competitive meaning 100-125k base salary + equity and bonus ideally. [link] [comments] |
Posted: 12 Jul 2018 10:12 AM PDT I read a couple interview reviews on glassdoor and have come to realize that I really don't remember the intricacies of linked lists, for example. Sure I got the gist and I know how they work but actually developing the pointer manipulation algorithms on a whiteboard? shit I don't remember any of that. Anyone else feel that that's normal or do I just have a bad memory? [link] [comments] |
Would you take a pay cut to grow as a developer? Posted: 12 Jul 2018 03:37 PM PDT Currently I am working at company A making 35k (which is pretty ok for the Netherlands). But its really boring. My team recently got two Springboot applications to maintain. But nobody in my team except for me has experience with the framework. So I end up reviewing their code and getting them up to speed. This has been going on for three months now. And takes most of my time. So i only get to write a few lines of code each day. I told my manager that I wanted to switch teams so I could learn from more experienced developers. But that was not an option. He wouldn't tell me why. After this I got a job offer (32k) from company B they seem really passionate about software and their product. But they only use Java with no frameworks. This sounds really cliche but i just want to be a good software engineer. Would it hurt my future chances if i went with company B, because I wouldn't be using any frameworks? [link] [comments] |
Working more than 40 hours a week Posted: 12 Jul 2018 04:19 PM PDT Is it okay to work more than 40 hours a week? I am just going to talk out loud here. The answer is different from everyone. For me, I ask: why would anyone free willingly more stay at the office more than 40 hours a week consistently. -But the team is fun! -The project is exciting, and the programming frameworks are awesome. -The code needs to be elegantly designed -There is a major deadline coming up -The company has limited budget, so we need to come together -Boss gives us free beer -PlayStation -We don't track Timesheets, so if you work more than 40 hours, we have flexible work hours The above are some of the reasons I heard my bosses/colleagues tell me why they work more than 40 hours a week. If I end up playing foosball for 2 hours, then I will work 42 hours to make up the hours. It's almost as if I have to keep a Timesheet just for my self to keep track of the hours, and defend myself if my boss thinks otherwise. If I choose not to participate in foosball or any other activities, then I should be able to go home at 40 hours, right? [link] [comments] |
Posted: 12 Jul 2018 11:49 AM PDT So as the title says, I'm an american electrical/software engineer who is looking to possibly move to Germany in about 2 years time. Some background: I have a BS in physics and MS in electrical engineering. I've been working as an electrical/software engineer for about 2 (soon to be 3) years. My job has mostly been focused on creating GUIs for interacting with electrical systems (data acquisition), creating touchscreen interfaces for similar systems, and low level programming for firmware (microcontrollers). Most of this has been done using C, C++, C#, and Java. What I want to do: I want to move more into a field of web development (full stack) and/or mobile development (Android/iOS). I don't mind doing what I already am doing, but I would like to change fields somewhat. The questions: In about 2 years, I will hopefully be moving to Germany with my girlfriend. Is there much of a tech industry for people like me? I've seen that Berlin has a thriving tech industry, but is that the only place? What can I start doing now to "beef up" my resume and make me more appealing to employers over there? Thanks! [link] [comments] |
Where are all the entry/junior positions? Posted: 12 Jul 2018 04:58 PM PDT My last onsite interviews: Staff SW Engineer Lead Software Engineer Senior Frontend Engineer Senior Node Developer I did get rejected from all them due to "lack of experience". One of them gave feedback, "if you gain more experience and knowledge in the roles of other tools available during web dev, how they all come together, and then through how they can be deployed and tested, then id be happy to reconsider you in a years time if youre looking again." Most recently, I had a junior onsite then they changed my entire interview process into Senior Java Engineer. Now I have to interview again this Monday. What is going on? I have no experience. [link] [comments] |
Doing a web and mobile app for $10k enough? Posted: 12 Jul 2018 04:48 PM PDT Was searching for projects on craiglist and found this booking app. Will not go much into the details but it requires web, android and iOS app with a target launch after 6 months. Was the offer cheap or should I negotiate for more? If more, how much more?
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Posted: 12 Jul 2018 08:33 AM PDT New Yorker here whose casually interviewed in both large and small companies. The smaller ones, while hit or miss, more often have employees that actually share some empathy when interviewing. Its a simple as smiling when talking to someone. Show genuine interest and follow up questions. Larger organizations, I'm met with stone faced people who just want to to know what you can code and don't care much for you as a person. (this included companies like Bloomberg, Facebook and FactSet) However, when I went out to the west coast for an interview at Linkedin it was quite the opposite. Is this an East-West Coast thing, company culture thing, or just developers suck at human interaction thing? [link] [comments] |
Posted: 12 Jul 2018 07:15 PM PDT Sorry for formatting since I'm on my phone. Im soon to start my second year in my CS bachelor. I have been feeling really lost lately, not about classes or anything more about what I should be doing and what can I do with it after. I have been enjoying the classes, C++ and web development was pretty good and it all went well with good grades. I have been enjoying coding and was learning Java a bit a while back. I have read a lot that the bachelor degree is useless, so must I start working on some side projects? Do i need to learn various programming languages? I have been thinking about internships too but I dont know if i should wait a few more years or soon, since im not familiar with it. Also besides coding is there any job opportunity with someone with a bachelor degree in comp science? I feel lost and I want some guidance. [link] [comments] |
Posted: 12 Jul 2018 10:46 AM PDT I've been looking at the Udacity nanodegree programs and wondering if it's worth it. It strikes me almost as a bootcamp but without in person support and networking, but I'd be interested in hearing about people's firsthand experiences and whether you think it was worth it and helped you (especially if you previously didn't have relevant experience in the field you were looking to enter). [link] [comments] |
When should I apply for data science internships? Posted: 12 Jul 2018 06:17 PM PDT Hi guys, just needed a bit of advice. I am starting grad school at Columbia University where I'll be studying data science in September. I studied Financial Engineering at Carnegie Mellon and so my background is in finance and haven't really recruited with tech companies before. I've spent this summer improving my programming skills and building a portfolio of projects in anticipation of internship recruiting. Just wanted to know when recruiting for data science internships normally begins. I was looking at companies like LinkedIn, Microsoft and Facebook that have internships listed on their job portals but no deadlines. Does recruiting for summer internships normally take place after full time recruiting is complete in September/October or does it occur side by side with full time recruiting? Would really appreciate your help! [link] [comments] |
Recent Grad. What to do while applying for jobs? Posted: 12 Jul 2018 05:49 PM PDT Hello! I'm sorry if this is just another one of those posts about a lost recent graduate.....but yeah I just graduated with a BS in CS from a university in the Bay Area. I however don't have a job lined up but have been applying. Got a few rejections and a lot of no answers. I am starting to lose my mind and it has only been less than a month since graduated. How do I keep my self form being discouraged? I have been applying to a lot of positions. I have also started doing some online courses/tutorials to brush up my skills and learn more Web Dev. I just don't know what exactly I should do? When I practice interview questions I keep messing up and taking too long! Should I just keep practicing more interview questions? learn new stuff like iOS development? I keep thinking that I wont get a job. I do have a bit of experience since I had an internship that was half of a year during my junior year. I live with my parents way up north from the Bay Area, middle of nowhere, with none of my friends close by so I also don't have a social life since I know no one in town. Any word of advice would be much appreciated :) [link] [comments] |
Student curious about the nature of tech industry Posted: 12 Jul 2018 05:31 PM PDT I'm a third year studying cs at university and while I really enjoy the subject I found my internship experience to be not so fulfilling. I'm only on my second internship so I realize it's probably too soon to make any generalizations but I can't help but let these experiences bring me down. My last internship had very little work available except for two to three weeks, but my supervisor was very kind and she made me feel like it was okay. But for my second internship I feel so stressed out. I feel that the people who are running the company are just too cheap to hire enough employees. On our entire team I am the only person fulfilling the role(automations, mobile stuff etc.). There was another fultimer but she was always texting her boyfriend or on wechat and never did any work. I'm not trying to sound arrogant or anything but the work which was assigned to both of us I had to do all on my own while she would dissappear for a four hour "lunch break ". Then she quit three weeks in and I had to do everything on my own.I honestly feel so betrayed because during the interview she said i was supposed to be helping her and she would give me guidance, and now I do everything. The other team members help me out but I feel alot of them are overwhelmed with their work too, and it doesn't change the fact that I have so much to do. The boss said that they won't be able to hire anyone soon because apparently the process is very long(over a month or something). Im honestly just feeling so tired with all this. I can't even quit because the coop program is offerred by the school and apparently they'll kick you out of it if you quit midway. The thing is, everyone I talk to says this is real life, or this is the nature of the tech industry.Im wondering how much truth there is to this? Is this the way that things are always going to be? It's not that I'm lazy or don't want to do work, I just wish I could have a balance. Maybe I'm just spoiled from all the freedom they give us in school. I only have two and a half months left but I can't even make it through another day. I really just want to quit but everyone says its a bad idea and things will get better. But that's what they said at my previous internship and things only got worse. I worry how I will survive if this is going to be my life. Maybe I am just not cut out for the field. [link] [comments] |
Deciding whether to join a Startup Posted: 12 Jul 2018 05:04 PM PDT I currently have a pretty good and cushy job, making good money and have a decent amount of work/life balance. But recently, an old colleague of mine reached out to ask me to tell me he was building a new tech team at a startup. Don't have too many details yet, but I know that this startup has had some investments from some big banks/PE firms and has been operating for some time now (it's not totally brand new and unproven as a startup). I'm considering joining my colleague at the startup but I've never actually ever worked for a startup before, so I'm not sure what I'm about to walk into. What do you guys use/think about when evaluating whether to take the risk and jump into a startup? (I know I haven't given many specifics, but I'm more looking for general tips) [link] [comments] |
Getting a foot in the door long after graduating Posted: 12 Jul 2018 12:01 PM PDT I don't know how unique my case is or how I should word this to prepare anyone reading it that they'll probably want to rip their hair out, but I'm not sure what else to do at this point. I graduated in 2009 and have accomplished absolutely nothing with my degree since; I was very young when I started in college and had little context or understanding of what I was getting myself into; my mother basically pushed me through the program until I graduated, and only closer to the end of it did I have some idea of the career options it would open. Regardless, I did no internships, I did not go to job fairs, I did no networking, and I'm struggling to not remain outraged at my younger self for not taking up any of these options (because what good will that do, not like I have a time machine) because almost 9 years later I really don't know what to do. My mother passed away in 2010 and things got bad after that; I had to learn how to take care of myself (because despite being labelled a "child genius" I was CLUELESS on so many basic things) and the entire process of looking for jobs was discouraging. My resume was barren (I had one project done from school; the last classes I took, I was either pushed through so I could graduate, or whoever I was partnered with for a project would go ahead and do 99% of the project on their own, not letting me contribute even from the start despite me asking repeatedly) and I struggled to find things to do on my own that would be relevant; I got a handful of responses, if even that, from applying to jobs and none of them led to anything. It wasn't until 2013 that I was finally able to start any kind of job, and it wasn't even one I applied for (or even would have); it was at a restaurant, where I still work today. Since then I've been struggling; I've given up and have gotten remotivated multiple times. Let me clarify that I don't think I chose the wrong degree; even if I had little understanding of it at the start I'd consider myself a competent enough programmer that I think it's worth trying to move forward. I just really don't know how to move forward; I've started on other projects lately, I've been putting in more applications even on postings that seem far above my level, I get responses here and there (many of which are scams but there have been a couple of encouraging responses, but that have led to nothing) but I don't know what else I should be doing, or if, heaven forbid, after this long I don't have much chance at all of getting any sort of entry level position (and the most frustrating thing is, I've been told more than once now that because I had graduated so long ago, [organization] has nothing available for me, otherwise I'd be good) I've been browsing this subreddit and it's helped somewhat, but I think it'd be far more valuable to reach out and ask for help. If there's anything else I need to be doing, I need to know what it is. I'm in the DC area but currently have no money to travel elsewhere. [link] [comments] |
Anyone offered equity in the app they are developing? Posted: 12 Jul 2018 04:39 PM PDT My boss is offering me equity in the app I'm solo developing. Has anyone had experience with this? What percentage if any is typical, or what other bonuses/perks are usually offered/asked for in a situation like this? [link] [comments] |
Posted: 12 Jul 2018 02:27 PM PDT Hey! I'm a rising Junior interning at a large financial tech firm, not exactly prestigious but a solid fintech company. I wanted to maximize my chances of landing a Big 4/Unicorn next summer. In terms of getting interviews before the main recruiting season starts, what would you recommend I do to get those interviews if applications aren't exactly open. I know people are recruited before the season starts and wanted to solidify my chances before hand just as well. Would contacting recruiters on LinkedIn/Email be a good way to get interviews earlier and in the pipeline before the rush? What other steps can I take? Thanks [link] [comments] |
Best path from Architecture to CS? Certificate vs online BS vs Bootcamps for starting from scratch Posted: 12 Jul 2018 04:17 PM PDT TL;DR: 29, in Architecture and want to bail. Don't have any more money for school and need to keep working. Zero CS experience. Are bootcamps too rigorous/unreliable for my experience level? Are there reputable online BS options that I will actually learn from (OSU)? Would a Programming Certificate from somewhere like Harvard Extension be a good start to either of those options, or is it a waste of money? I graduated with a BS in Architecture just last year at age 29. Despite the many years I put into it (dropping out for lack of money, starting again 3 years later), I never really considered the trajectory of my career. The culture of the industry seems terribly toxic, with an awful life/work balance and pathetic paychecks that feel exploitative for how many hours and how much effort the job takes. I've recently met a number of people who all went through bootcamp (App Academy) from unrelated fields and went on to be extremely successful, but each of them at least had a passing knowledge of CS beforehand. I have absolutely no experience to draw from, so I'm not sure if this is the route for me. Additionally, they did it when the field was much less saturated with people like them. I'm reluctant to start school again for a BS since I simply no longer have the money or time to go through another 3-4 years of school for an entry-level position. I've been looking at online options that would allow me to complete school remotely and possibly keep working during that time, but I'm not sure if any of those are really reputable or of more help than teaching myself. It looks like there are certificate programs that would help me ease into the field, but again- are they worth it? It looks like they wouldn't transfer into credits towards a BS and I doubt I'd be able to get any kind of job with something like that. [link] [comments] |
Consultans lurking here, care to answer a few questions about your job? Posted: 12 Jul 2018 10:12 AM PDT Hello guys, I was wondering if you could answer some of the quesitons I have for your job as a consultant.
Thanks in advance! [link] [comments] |
Posted: 12 Jul 2018 07:53 PM PDT New grad here on a throwaway. I've been working for a year now and I love what my team works on and the projects I own (ML related) but I don't trust my manager at all. I originally joined under another manager (who I got along with well) but he moved to the Bay Area (we are based in NYC) and my new manager replaced him. I've worked now with my new manager since February when he joined, and I don't like or trust him. I think for some reason he is biased against me. Example: when I told him I can't reach out to external candidates because I haven't been at the company for x long yet (per our company policy), he assumed I was being lazy and trying to make excuses. Communication between us is strained — I constantly feel like he's being condescending and that he really does not have my best interest at heart (at one point he told me I need to be a team player instead of trying to impress other people. When I asked what I was doing that suggested that, he couldn't answer). Internal moves at my company are fairly easy. I'm strongly leaning towards switching to another team because of my manager situation. But I love my technical stack, my coworkers, my projects, etc. Is it dumb to switch because I don't trust my manager and I don't trust he would fight for me when it comes to performance evaluations if I'm going for a promotion? How important is a manager to your career? [link] [comments] |
Posted: 12 Jul 2018 03:24 PM PDT 28 y/o Sr PL/SQL Developer here looking to make a career change to working with some other technologies as I want to really expand my skillset and PL/SQL is pretty limiting. I'm paid pretty well (just into 6-figures with salary + small bonus). I live in a low COL city working remote full-time. My issue is if I want to switch focuses to something new like Ruby, I don't have the professional experience to get anywhere near the salary I'm paid now. I have some personal projects I could show a prospective employer using Ruby/Rails, but again it's nothing groundbreaking. Has anyone been in a similar situation where you wanted to switch languages/focuses? Did you have to take a major pay-cut? Did it work out well in the long-run? I don't really want to take a big step back salary-wise but I'm also really bored at work. [link] [comments] |
Looking for some career growth/specialization guidance. Posted: 12 Jul 2018 12:50 PM PDT TLDR: Trying to figure out what I should specialize in so that I can make myself a valuable asset to future companies. Bonus if I can use those skills to pursue a nomadish life style in the future. Long format: I have had 3 jobs in my relatively short career in CS (3+ years). The first 2 were not great - simple app development and debugging someone else's undocumented sphagetti code. My current job is pretty decent - working on a back-end service (no front-end or database component to the service though). I have learned a lot but I feel that I have been plateauing for the past 6-12 months. I am not coding much and am not really learning anything new on the technical front. I want to code more since I don't think I have a strong technical foundation. But instead of churning out lines of code every day all I am doing is fixing bugs, telemetry updates and sending out email reports on what I did. I am afraid that I already don't have enough projects to show for my 3+ years of work experience. I am trying to figure out where I should take my career from here. My current experience/set of skills are pretty generic and can be done by any new engineer. I don't think I bring anything valuable to the table. And I am not getting any younger. So before it becomes too late I really want to focus and specialize in one area so that I can call myself an "experienced" developer in X area (in the future). I am trying to decide what area to choose to specialize in and am looking for ideas from experienced folks. A couple of thoughts that occurred to me (please let me know if I am making wrong assumptions): 1. Full stack engineer - There will always be a need for these kind of engineers (or at least web developers). I have zero knowledge in JavaScript. I will have to start from the basics, maybe build a couple of simple websites and then learn a modern framework (thinking of React because of potential for cross platform development on mobile). I also need to get some experience with databases. I think I could learn all this stuff by myself because there is a ton of material online. 2. Machine Learning engineer - I have always been interested in machine learning. I know I don't have the educational background (too late to do a PhD) to be eligible to be a part of cutting edge work/research in ML. But I think I will be happy to work on some of the smaller problems. Entering this field will be tough though - I will have to start on an engineering team that supports the ML team (productizing their prototypes, setting up the data pipelines, etc.). And then hopefully gain enough knowledge to maybe get a role applying ML models to solve small problems. To even get the initial break I will have to learn a ton of new things. But again this should be doable since most of the material is available online. I am leaning towards concentrating on becoming a full stack engineer. One of the reasons is that I would also like the option to work remotely/be a digital nomad at some point in the future. It seems to me that it's more easier to find remote jobs for full stack engineers/web developers rather than other areas. Any guidance on what I should do to improve myself and set myself on a successful career path would be very helpful. I am kind of lost on what to do from here. Edit: Formatting [link] [comments] |
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